The Real Deal China vs Japan

[scootnwinn]

This is an old one from the old scootdawg It was somewhat controversial and I got in trouble for even suggesting some one think about this. I think its good to think though and with thoughtfulness and moderation I think this can be a healthy discussion. It was originally posted on 10/19/2012 I don't know that I'm right but my Suzuki ROCKS! Admin if this goes too far feel free to delete it... uhm the original went like this:


hard1 said "I venture to guess that most people that buy cheap Chinese scooters do not expect a Piagio or a Vespa or a Honda or a Yamaha when they spend one fourth the amount of money or even less for the internet special. Those that do complain just live in La La land and are out of touch with reality.

on the contrary, I find most low end scooter buyers do indeed believe their flea market scooters to be equal of a premium built scoot....."

This was taken from another thread started by cliftonc where he sought to impart wisdom to us. I have been thinking of talking about something similar for a while...
The statement above from the other thread is fairly accurate, I have seen it said here. They often say the big guys are all over priced and their bikes are similar or at the very least they indicate the have received at least 1/4 to 1/3 of a Japanese or Italian scooter. I have both a Japanese and Chinese bike and I don't know that I have received that much value compared to my Japanese bike for the $850 I spent on the Chinese. Mine is a "touring" scooter Jonway YY150t-2.

So it goes to say the design intent was to tour, there is no way you can tour on this scooter period. So how do you keep with in its design limits. What are those limits? You can run a Honda 250, 150, 50 or whatever WFO every time you ride it for years, and years. If you hold mine wide open for 5 minutes you will feel it start to "complain" then sputter and you know you have to slow down.
As far as cost there is a serious misconception that Japanese bikes are too expensive. This is simply fiction. Honda will release a 50cc for under $2k this year (2013 model year) and their PCX 150 is $3499 it will do 70mph (actual mph) and gets a real 100 mpg look at this: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fi..._honda_pcx150/ There is no comparable Chinese 150cc scooter to that. You will need a 250 to go that fast and your gas mileage will be around 60 mpg which means the Honda PCX costs $424 a year less to run (if you put 350 miles a week like I do). So the real price on the PCX for the first year is reduced by $420. (minor digression: Vespa makes a sweet and I mean SWEET little 150 comparable to the Honda in price fit and finish. I left the Italians out to keep this simple and likewise the Taiwanese whose prices are a somewhere in between Chinese Japanese/Italian as is the performance. Though I must say I have never ridden a Kymco or its cousins I only know what I have read and seen second hand so with that, Now Back to Your Regularly Scheduled Program) and So in order match the performance (not mileage, just in order to do freeway speeds) of that Honda you will have to buy a 250 Chinese scoot which will cost around $2000 see here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=300cc...w=1280&bih=673
So after you do the famous (and absolutely necessary) PDI listed here you have a lot of time and another $50-$250 into the bike depending on whether you change the tires. Not to mention a whole mess of time, bloody knuckles, and hopefully you didn't break anything. If you need to warranty anything (and some do as soon as they un-crate them) you will wait unless you buy locally (not always possible right?) So I think you just got a bike that is far inferior to the Honda (its 1/4 to 1/3 of the bike right??) for around $2200 which is 71% of the cost of the Honda. Oh of course you could always get this Used Honda Reflex 250 http://santafe.craigslist.org/mcy/3249547047.html for $2100 then you really have a problem you just paid 5% more for 25% of the bike, not good!

So that's just one equation I was doing in my head as I was shaking down the road on my lovely little Jonway, contemplating getting a bigger bike recently. Basically I decided I not only wanted to do highway speeds but I actually wanted to not be maxed out doing them so I started looking at bikes 300 or bigger (basically about as big as Chinese scoots get) they cost around $2600 give or take see here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=300cc...hrome&ie=UTF-8
I doubt those prices are final to your door prices and I can assure you the titling and registration process will stink (my boss bills my time at $65 an hour so 3 trips to the MVD costs quite a bit...) so real world cost is nearly $3000 I'm sure. My Burgman 400 gets better gas mileage puts out nearly twice as much horsepower and the fit and finish on it is as good now 6 years after it was produced than that scooter will have out of the crate. It will cost $200 or more in gas alone to run the Chinese Scooter in the first year (based on 350 miles per week and around 10 mpg less than what the Suzuki gets). So I paid $2600 for the Burgman and I got, by most accounts on here 2 times the scooter maybe 4 times. Suddenly that Chinese scoot isn't all that great. Add to all that the fact the Burgman came with 2 name brand helmets a Givi touring windshield and the stock shield and the value is clear.
Ok, so that's the basic math but there are more variables to the equation. I worked at a Honda Motorcycle shop (at the time the 3rd best rated in the country) for 3 years. We never had a bike not start out of the crate (sorry that's a lie we were the first to receive the new Indian motorcycles the first one we got took all 5 mechanics 5 hours to get it to idle it was a pile sorry Indian fans). We never once had a bike not start or quit running while it was going down the road, not in the first year or even after 2 years of abuse. I mean some of these guys treated their bikes like crap and those little Hondas took it all and just kept ticking. I see a new post on here daily "Chinese Scooter XYZ left me stranded" "won't idle" "won't accept throttle" "doesn't stop" "no lights" etc. I didn't see these things with Honda. The only issue I saw with bikes not starting were the big single cylinder dirt-bikes 400cc and up. These bikes were notoriously tricky to start. In one case the salesman who sold a guy one that he was unable to start went to the guy's house and spent the afternoon basically showing him how to reliably kick it over, for free mind you.

So lets say your new 250 leaves you stranded on the way to work once how much is that worth? What if you miss a job interview? What if your late and your fired? How much is peace of mind worth? I'll be honest after my experience with my little 150 I was concerned with what issues the larger faster Chinese bike would have. Would the brakes stink too?? Would the chassis be as soft??
So obviously I bought a used Suzuki Burgman 400.


I wanted to let you know the differences I have noticed since I got it around 1500 miles ago (or like 3 and half weeks ago) The Jonway got 2800 miles in a year so the first difference is right there. The Burgman is freakin' nice to ride. You aren't watching the rear view mirror to see what is barreling down the road to smash you, you are watching the road ahead as you are able to go basically as fast as you need/want to. You can pass, climb hills, ride into a 20-30 mph headwind (which happens quite a bit in this neck of the woods) and maintain 55 mph, or whatever you always have enough power. The Jonway should have been able to do this any website that sells them says, the Jonway should be able to do 55-65 mph* that * is the kicker though isn't it? The * means the bike really, in all actuality, on planet Earth, will only do around 50 and sometimes only 45. You can do 55 if you hold it WFO long enough and you have a bit of a slope down and there's no wind (I only weigh 150 BTW and when I started riding it I weighed 135 and those 20lbs haven't seemed to make a difference). When you get up at those speeds you feel like your doing 180 mph cause the little guy feels like its ready to blow apart. So bottom line I couldn't ride it daily because it just flat wouldn't do what it was designed to do. It is possible to go 70 mph with 150cc's (see above). So it sat a lot because I would have to hold it wide open to come home in the wind (the wind blows 80% of the time out here) and still only maintain 50ish. At any speed the Suzuki feels solid the suspension works right and it keeps the wheels planted firmly on the pavement. Its a joy to ride pure and simple. I hate it when I have to drive the cage for any reason. I use it to go everywhere and wouldn't hesitate to go anywhere. All the plastic fits I mean nice and snug after 6 years in Arizona and 14000 miles. The 150 has 3600 on it lots of broken tabs misshapen pieces the lenses on the all the lights except the headlights are discolored. Remember, it is technically a 2008 but it didn't see the light of day until the original owner (the guy I bought from) got it in 2011. It started leaking oil a while back from where, only God knows. To be fair the Suzuki used about 1/2 a quart in the last 1200 miles but I knew it was possible since the 06's have an issue with their crankcase vent... Anyway the 2 bikes are night and day different. The 150 to be fair might be ok in the city but just 9 miles a day (actually 18 if you count the ride home) at 50-55mph (top speed whatever it really is) can not happen for long. I figure it would make it another 4000 before the motor was replaced. I am no going to buy a new scooter every year whether or not I can, as many on here say, "you can buy 2-4 Chinese scooters for 1 Japanese scoot" I refuse to waste that much. The whole idea of 2 wheelin, in my mind at least, is economical transportation that is good for the environment. Throwing away a scooter isn't right with my mindset. Now if you really can't reach $2k for a scoot there are still better options than a new "throw away machine" (keep in mind, these are not my words but the basic sentiment of people who say you can get 2-4 Chinese scoots for the Japanese one, not true but...)
Here in NM
Kawasaki Eliminator $1650 http://santafe.craigslist.org/mcy/3252566589.html
Kymco 125 $1800 http://santafe.craigslist.org/mcy/3326644928.html
Unknown Honda $1000 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/cto/3348322334.html (I bet it even runs)
Kymco Agility 125 $1299 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcd/3333902138.html
Honda Elite 80 $850 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcy/3288746800.html
Honda Rebel $1000 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcy/3322618992.html
Trust me there are a whole lot more than that. You just gotta look and know what to look for. I search often within a 1000 mile radius and there is a lot out there...
So any way if you are really honest with yourself and take in the totality of the experiences recorded here and on other sites the Chinese scooter, cost wise at least, is the same price as a Japanese machine to get it in your garage. However a Japanese bike has more power and better everything. If you look at it from a value stand point you are losing in the long run.

Now I am reasonable and we are starting to see a few companies bring better Chinese bikes into the states but the initial price is higher and comparable to the Kymco etc. Most of the stuff online is not the good stuff. I don't care really what you do to a bike (except maybe leave the oil out) it shouldn't stop running in the first year unless you shut it off.
Ok, lots of opinions here obviously from me. So let me just say a bit about myself:
My name is Rob Winn I am a Certified Honda Service Adviser, (no longer work as one but that doesn't make me unlearn anything) I have ridden motorcycles for 21 years, so ya I'm getting old, 37 to be exact. I have ridden everything Suzuki, Ducati, Kawasaki, BMW, Norton, Triumph, Honda, Indian, Harley, Yamaha... all different sizes styles. I have owned 6 Hondas from the GL500 to the Shadow 1100, 2 Suzuki's 1 Kawasaki, 1 home-made moped, and the Jonway. I commuted with/used them all as my primary transportation. When I wasn't on a motorcycle commuting (I only used a car as my primary a total of 3 years over the past 20 or so) I was using a bicycle for commuting. I know what a bike should do and how it should feel. I do all my own work on all my vehicles, after my time at the Honda shop I was a mechanic's apprentice in an independent motorcycle shop for a year. I guess my point is, yes, these are just my opinions but they are well qualified opinions based on 10's of thousands of miles on 2 wheels.
Hope it wasn't too long winded or rambling. Hope it saves someone from pushing a brand new bike at some point in the future...
No matter what you ride keep the shiny side up and wave to your fellow bikers, no matter what we ride we are all in the same battle

[danielm]

Thank you. Very interesting read considering I'm coming from the opposite end of the spectrum experience-wise.

I've made some of the same mental calculations on my time, vs a mechanics time, vs repairs, upkeep, parts swapping, etc, vs just trying to find a way to get a scooter that doesn't need it. While I do totally understand that for many people the tweaking is their favorite part of the hobby/lifestyle I'm not really in the place right now either financially or with the mechanical knowledge. I'm very mechanically inclined but when I need to get somewhere and the scooter will be my primary mode of transportation (since I work very close and my wife uses the car) the last thing I want to find is a problem that keeps me from moving with repairs I'd most likely have to research on my own to get it taken care of.

It is a slippery slope though. First I was set on a certain style of scooter, ranged around 1200-1400 or so online. Of course add in replacement parts, etc, all like you mentioned. Then I saw the new lance cali classic 125, it's not a Honda but from everything I've read it's pretty close and it runs around 2000. Then you start thinking.. ok, well a dealer isn't close, so add a couple hundred for shipping... oh, now I'm pretty close to a new piaggio.. which is a pretty close jump to a yamaha, etc.

[scootnwinn]

Exactly I like to tinker but not on my dailies I need dependability I have had a Chinese 150 never leave me stranded for 3600 miles but that can change quickly.

[Admin]

Great read and great info! Thanks for sharing it, I'm sure it will help people out.

[spandi]

I really don't understand the controversial aspects of this. As far as I can see it's all about forms of payment. If you purchase a Japanese scooter will it cost more? yes, will parts cost more? Probably. If you buy a Chinese scoot will it cost less? yes, but you will make additional "payment" in time and parts making it reliable, and for people with more mechanical ability than ready cash it will work out in their favor, for others with the financial resources but little time or mechanical inclination, a brand name bike with a long warranty behind it does the trick. Just as long as you're happy and zooming down the road. (preferably with a broad ear-to-ear grin!)

[scootnwinn]

Amen spandi I didn't think it was controversial either but in the forum it was originally posted in it started a 4 page flame war and I was threatened with banishment if I defended my thoughts or ever posted something like this again. Any way I do plan to get another 150 Chinese bike and it will not be a daily rider it will be ridiculous. I have a project car to flip and then its on (there is CCW tha Misfit calling my name to so we will see right?). I love all 2 wheelers I just wanted people to be able to see this in a clearly lit room so to speak...

[spandi]

SNW some people like nothing better than pushing someone else's buttons (never got it) and don't need the grief, (it wasn't your fault if they went nuts.) Now on to the good stuff! Both tha Misfit and the Heist look to be fun bikes that are made to be worked on and upgraded by us "Wrenchers" let me know how it works out when you get one, after all, there ain't no law that says ya can't own and love both a Chinese and Japanese bike too!

[rockynv]

There are many choices and when it come to dollars the Italian bikes during the annual incentives come pretty close to the same cost as the Chinese bikes during the first few years of ownership. I went from a Lance/Znen 150 that got me 50 to 60 mpg to an Italian 250 with efi that gives me 70 to 80 mpg. The Italian bike did cost $2,999 at a local dealer however that was only a few hundred more than a Chinese 250 cost at a local dealer. The cost of the Italian bike was less than 20% more than the Chinese bikes available locally which ranged from $2,599 to $2,799 and it came with a full parts and labor warranty with a local dealer to back it up and a parent company with a support and training center in the US to back-up the dealer and arbitrate for you if the dealer messed up.

The difference sitting on the bike is like night and day compared to my old Znen. Some get emotional about these things however for me it is all in the math. Only a few hundred more invested and thousand less in overall time and maintenance. More time on the road and less in the garage so that I ride about 360 days a year with only occasionaly trips to the dealer for a few hours every now and then for things like specials on tires mounted and balances or free services. 14,000 miles so far of no-problems and no-worries.

[inuyasha]

Hi
I own and love them all motorbikes that is
Doesnt matter the make or brand one bit to me
Chinese scoots

Project scoot 045 by inuyasha50, on Flickr

Scooter Tag 017 by inuyasha50, on Flickr
Italian scoot

Aprilia SR50 by inuyasha50, on Flickr
And in my 44 years of riding ive owned and rode just about everything and any thing with 2 wheels and an engine
Take care and ride safely
Yours Hank

[50cc]

Well, I guess I'm tied to my Chinese 50cc for life - my first engine blew on the seventh year and, since the scoot is my only vehicle, I had no time for rebuilds and bought me a new engine and just replaced it. As time passed I completely repaired and tuned my old engine as well. So now I have one scoot, two engines in top condition and a lot of tools and spare parts (incl. carburetors) made specifically for the 139qmb platform. I have the money to get an Italian or Japanese 50cc, but now I know more about Chinese scoots than I know about JP ot IT. So I guess I'll wore out this engine, the spare one and then I'll start thinking about something better. But by the time this day comes it might be just another Chinese one, but this time with an EFI.

[scootnwinn]

Thanks for that Hank. That made me think of something that might need clarification. I don't necessarily dislike any brand. That being said in the past due to lots of things I was fairly loyal to Honda but This is my second Suzuki and I really like a lot of things about it. Will all my bikes from here on out be Suzuki's maybe not but I will definatelly look for them. I can say if I was riding for liesure I might be a lot less critical. Bikes that are ridden daily need to be comfortable, durable, reliable, and capable of keeping up with traffic. I really want to like my little Jonway and I know with slight modification it could be faster and possibly it already is reliable. Comfortable though not so much, the seat is a literal pain in the butt. It causes sensation to your lower cheeks that I didn't know were possible like hotflashes and weird stuff and this is all on the 20 mile round trip. Durable it is not the bike is falling a part much quicker than you would expect. I think there is the possibility and potential in the bike for adequacy and I can make it that way it just didn't come that way. It may not really be designed for rigorous commuting of the length I require.

[50cc]

Originally Posted by scootnwinn

I can say if I was riding for liesure I might be a lot less critical. Bikes that are ridden daily need to be comfortable, durable, reliable, and capable of keeping up with traffic.

Well, I learned the hard way 'reliable' and 'keeping up with traffic' are two different things. My first engine had 4g weights, pod filter and a Gama exhaust. Yeah, it was really keeping up with traffic and was revving like hell, but lasted only 9000 km. Well, thank to its first owner also. Now I go with 7g sliders, rich on the main and two days ago I also put back my stock air box. I lost a bit of kick, but I gained a silent and reliable scooter, that revs low, it's powerful enough for my every-day rides to work and back (50 kilometers in total), but not enough to compete with every nervous BMW driver, I'd say 'keeps up with most of traffic'. You can't expect more from a 50cc if you want it to live forever and have a good MPG.

[spandi]

The way the Chinese are rapidly moving foward in Quality control and larger size bikes this might, in the not too distant future become a moot point. (as I said in an earlier posting, I closely checked out a Linhai main street 260 and was fairly floored by how well it was put together)

[spandi]

Well 50cc, the Chinese always seem to set them lean. Knowing that, I then rejetted so it would be just this side of rich.

[scootnwinn]

Yep I think you're right spandi. I anticipate the prices will rise a bit too though then we will get cheap scoots from India...