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03-09-2014, 10:09 PM
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#32 | |
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: West Haven CT
Posts: 1,165
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I surely hope not I shall leave with these words of wisdom from Edna Ferber "A closed mind is a dying mind" Take care and ride safely dear friend Yours Hank
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 "4wheels move the body 2 wheels move the soul"Duty, Honor, Country. Those three hallowed words reverently dictate what you ought to be, what you can be, what you will be. Douglas MacArthur |
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03-09-2014, 11:53 PM
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#34 | |
 Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 139
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It has been done, like the new "Lambrettas" with the 4 valve heads, but those Lambretta Uno 150's have only about 13 hp and like the Genuine's are made to a higher spec. They're not cheap Chinese GY6's but Taiwanese made upgraded GY6's and of course they command higher prices for their higher quality. And unless you improve the cheap Chinese metallurgy. It's not going to be as reliable. SYM's engines are regularly known to go 80,000 miles before wearing out, Vespa's would too if people decided to actually ride them instead of posing for photos in front of coffee shops as I know the Piaggio Fly 150's have reports of such high miles in Australia, Hondas well we all know they'll run forever. Nobody on this board will claim their GY6 150cc engines can get to those kinds of miles even as much as we love our Chinese scooters, we'll readily admit their faults and downsides. |
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03-10-2014, 01:09 AM
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#37 |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 139
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Yes except I'm also one in real life. This is why us engineers hold such disdain for designers. You make assumptions, don't care about science, and don't believe facts when presented clear as day in front of you. I've met enough designers whose principal talent is BS. I'll tell you one thing, you don't have an open mind, None of us here claim our stuff is as good as the name brand stuff because we know it's not but we love our Chinese bikes still for their value, but we understand the limits of their quality.
Where I work we're not even allowed to buy Chinese steel for a good reason. We make critical helicopter and turbine engine components and because of rampant certification falsification in China, Chinese steel mills can give us contaminated steel which when hardened beyond Rockwell HRC 40 will catastrophically fail without warning. We buy metal from India, Europe, Japan no problem the certifications can be traced, verified and the steel tested. We sent Chinese steel to an independent certification lab and came back half of the samples were contaminated even though they were "certified" by the Chinese company as pure. All it takes to buy a certification in China is a few bucks. And the difference is you've posted claims and opinions with no proof. Everyone's might be an engineer on the interwebs but at least those people try to back their claims up with something resembling proof. You're basically saying a Ford Model T can be made to the same quality a modern Honda Civic with just some minor upgrades. It simply can't. And the GY6 is a nearly 50 year old design so most definitely technology has progressed way passed this nearly half century old design. When I say the metallurgy is different even between different GY6 engine manufacturers it's no joke. For example in our cheap Chinese scooters how often do we stress adjusting the valves? It's usually the first thing we suggest when engines have running or starting problems. I had a Honda Metropolitan it's 50cc. I sold it at 15,000 miles and the valves were still in spec and didn't need adjustment. Try going that far on a GY6 without adjusting the valves. You won't. Valve recession is one glaring hole in your Chinese is just as good as European and Japanese brands. You can replace all the hoses you want. Unless you can pop those cheap stainless valve seats and replace them with real Stellite valve seats you're not gonna have the same valve durability period. Do you even know what the ceramic coated cylinders in SYM's engines is? It's Nikasil. If you've never seen it before this stuff is so durable when your engine finally loses compression at 75,000 miles all you have to do is put new rings in and you'll be good to go. It literally does not wear out and won't need reboring or rehoning. But in order to make an engine that durable you need a more solid lower end, better cranks and connecting rod bearings and crankshaft bearings. Something the Chinese GY6's lack because of the need to keep tighter manufacturing tolerances and strict quality control all of which costs money which is why the Taiwanese scooters cost nearly as much as the Japanese ones. I've posted specific models and makes you can look up. Even in the best possible OEM manufactured condition the GY6 engine design is limited in its possible specific output, ie hp to displacement. I could go further but it would take a lot longer posts. But if you can refute any of my claims with facts and not opinion. Please feel free. As an engineer I actually welcome it, as taking constructive criticism is part of the job, you need to be able to take it and use it to design and produce better products, improve quality and reduce costs. But right now you're the one whose quite short on facts and way too long on opinion. Back it up and make me eat my words. Again I welcome it. |
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03-10-2014, 10:03 AM
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#38 |
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: York PA
Posts: 339
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[i DO NOT wish to rethink my sig, i stand by it 100%...if you have read my sig CORRECTLY it says "upgraded" so if you put them naked side to side with a upgraded gy6, its a different story plus there are more gy6 in the streets than brand name scoots in the us...]
Hey man, I meant no disrespect to your sig. I should have typed a bit more. When I was in VoTech school back in the early 70's, my shop was welding/fabricating. When I first removed the covers from my brand new scooter (before 300 miles) to figure out the gas feeding issue it had, the welds jumped out at me as being *unpassable in my shop class*. I see porisity, I see unfinished welds, I see slag in some, I see splatter painted over, areas where weld should be just a spec maybe. All things I'd fail with (in vo-tech) if it was a required weldment. Never meant to upset you man, but I know what I know, and I spent YEARS fabricating, before I started to build and erect/start up web printing presses. Think what you will man, I'm finished with this thread. |
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03-10-2014, 10:14 AM
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#39 |
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hyde Park, NY
Posts: 1,058
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OK, here's my two cents on this topic. Will a Chinese GY6 last as long under the same conditions as a Chinese SYM GY6 or Honda PCX. No. That's why you have to observe the limits. Cruise all day at 45 mph and 3/4 throttle on a Chinese GY6 150, it will last a good long time. Someone mentioned Acworthpatricks Automoto, he just passed 40,000 miles. What he didn't mention is his Baccio GY6 scooter. he's well above 45,000 miles on that and, yes, he just replaced the rear gears but not the engine bits.
What I find interesting is this "My expensive 50cc scooter will outlast a cheap GY6". I would think so. At $2000 for a 50cc Piaggio Typhoon or Aprilia, I would hope so. Here's my point. Plenty of people out there are nailing down incredible miles on cheap GY6s by riding with their heads. Truth be told Chinese GY6s are like Harleys. Mod and ride them hard-they blow up. Leave them stock, do the maintenance and ride sensibly and they get high mileage. It's a Universal Formula. |
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03-10-2014, 05:50 PM
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#40 |
 Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 79
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When your talking about gy6 are we talking just motor or whole scooter? I'm just courious. The motor in my oppinion is the best thing on these scooters. At 10000 km I can say with the exception of a small oil leak the motor is good its the cheap plastics and electrical crap that I have the most issues with when I have problems.
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03-10-2014, 07:54 PM
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#41 |
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 46
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Hondas are ugly. I wouldnt buy one for that reason alone.
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03-21-2014, 11:34 AM
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#42 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 37
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I know Chinese scooters are very inexpensive. With proper maintenance and replacing a few parts from the beginning a decent scooter mechanic can keep one running and have a fair amount of reliability and longevity. Not a bad bang for the buck, definitely cheaper than a Japanese or high end Taiwanese scooter. Some say the Chinese scooter cost so much less that the extra quality of a high priced machine isn't justified. I've owned a few "high priced" name brand scooters and I thought the cost was worth it. However, I like a good bargain too, and lately I've changed my preference. I've found that SYM and Kymco make quality Taiwanese scooters manufactured in mainland China under the same strict quality control as their more expensive models. Tomos Nitro, all Lance scooters are Taiwanese quality scooters made by SYM. Kymco does the same thing with the Agility and Like models. Eton scooters are made in Taiwan too, but most people group them with Chinese made and there are many leftover models for cheap. In 125-150cc sizes these scooters cost anywhere from $1800 to $2500 new. Not too much above the upper end of $1700 mentioned by someone for Chinese scooters. These scooters are mechanically equal to similar models from Japan, though the plastics aren't quite as good (but not brittle and ill fitting like some Chinese scooters). For the most part they use generic GY6 engines and you can buy both cheap Chinese parts or higher quality parts from many different sources should the need arise. I found several people who bought new older stock Eton Matrix 150cc scooters for $1500 out the door. Wide 12" tires, dual disc brakes, large seat with good storage, and a Taiwanese GY6 that makes 10.5 HP and pushes the 210 lbs scooter to an actual 60-65 mph bone stock. I wish I could have found that deal before I bought my Tomos Nitro 150 for $1899 shipped to my door. No regrets though, my wife and I have toured over 4000 miles on two lane highways and off road through some pretty gnarly stuff and the scooter has been bulletproof. 85 mpg and cruising 50-60 mph most of the time. We have ridden 300 miles in a day riding two up on the Tomos Nitro 150 and won't hesitate to take it anywhere, any distance. For comparison we owned a SYM HD200 EVO before that and the Tomos has been every bit as reliable and roadworthy. |
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03-21-2014, 02:04 PM
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#43 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 37
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It seems like a difference of opinions here. I made the mistake of disagreeing with the majority on "It is the ride" forum.
Those people insist that a Chinese scooter is every bit the equal of anything out of Taiwan or Japan. Even though they clearly admit parts like hoses, cdi's, bearings, belts, variators, batteries, ignition coils, fasteners, carbs, etc. should be replaced during the original PDI. Then they will find somebody that has more than 10,000 miles on a chinascoot and say that it is as good as a Honda? The majority of those guys only owned one or two Chinese scooters and never had a Honda or something comparable that they would call a waste of money. Unfortunately it got personal and ugly, but I enjoyed picking apart their misinformed point of view making them look like hypocrites until I finally managed to get banned. And by the way, I clearly stated and believe there is a place and purpose for a Chinese scooter. But that doesn't mean it is as good as a Japanese/Taiwanese scooter or a better value. I have owned two different Chinese scooters as well as Honda, Yamaha, SYM, CPI and others, there is a significant difference. There is nothing wrong with a Chinese scooter, but there is something wrong with claiming it is something that it isn't. Yes, you could ride a 150cc chinascoot around town at lower speeds and significantly extend the engine life by not pushing it real hard. But the same can be said about a Japanese/Taiwanese machine, driven gently they will last longer than they already do. If you need a 150cc machine to ride 50-55+ on a regular basis, your best bet is to invest in a higher quality/priced scooter. |
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